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The 5 Two-Face Killed

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BOF'er Posts: 11 07/23/08 5:46 AM	Tags : None At the end of the movie it was said that Two-Face had killed 5 different people, and Batman was going to take the heat for the kills in order to maintain Harvey's heroic image. My question is, who were the 5 killed? I only remember the balled cop in the bar, and Maroni's driver (and most likely Maroni as well). He didn't kill Rivera, the female cop...so who were the others killed? Sorry if this has been already asked.
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Nighting019		#1	[url]	[-]
BOF'er Posts: 57 07/23/08 5:53 AM	Good question, I was asked exactly the same question a couple of days ago and had no answer. I'm going to see TDK for the 3rd time tomorrow though, so will make it a point to keep track this time around :)
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DeasNuts1		#2	[url]	[-]
BOF'er Posts: 231 07/23/08 8:05 AM	I think the second cop that is blamed on Dent is the cop that the Joker killed in the hospital. It would be easy for everyone to assume that Dent killed that guy.
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Nilan8888		#3	[url]	[-]
BOF'er Posts: 236 07/23/08 8:10 AM	Can we get the actual line that says 5 people, if possible? It might help in getting to the bottom of the issue.
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Evil Twin 120		#4	[url]	[-]
BOF'er Posts: 2484 07/23/08 8:50 AM DCU Guru	DeasNuts1 wrote: I think the second cop that is blamed on Dent is the cop that the Joker killed in the hospital. It would be easy for everyone to assume that Dent killed that guy. Considering that The Joker came out of the hospital and then kidnapped a bunch of people in a bus, I don't see why everyone would assume that Dent killed anyone there. Heck, he was restrained and someone else had to loosen those restraints. I suppose you could include the Bartender in the count, but he didn't seem to be involved at all and Dent was targetting those involved. It was implied that Dent took someone's place in the back of the limo, so that could add up to 4. Was 5 Harvey himself? "Slowly, his great frame straightens. Small veins stand out on his features. Muscles cord in his throat. His eyes become fires, his mouth a knife-edged line. For the first time, the Batman knows rage. Bleak, grim rage. Woe to all criminals, for now, the Batman has become a terrible figure of vengeance!" Batman #5, The Case of the Honest Crook
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markwestlyhughes		#5	[url]	[-]
BOF'er Posts: 2746 07/23/08 10:17 AM	Dent killed: 1. Maroni's driver 2. Maroni 3. The cop in the bar 4. One other cop Gordon says that two of the people Dent killed were cops, so that's where #4 above comes from, but I don't think that second cop's death was shown (or it wasn't obvious enough for me to notice). Perhaps there was a cop outside Gordon's home, for protection against the Joker, and Dent killed that cop when he kidnapped Gordon's family, but I don't personally recall any line in the film that said this. Or I think the other one is meant to be the cop in Dent's room, since the gun that killed that cop in the hospital is the same one that killed Maroni's driver and the cop in the bar. I think this is most likely, since Gordon and Batman think Dent was killing all those other folks and they likely think the cop at the hospital untied Dent from the bed to help evacuate him and was then shot by Dent. The Joker's presence at the hospital is kind of a separate issue, since yes he blew up the hospital and took hostages afteward, but Dent still definitely escaped during the evacuation and definitely was using the same gun in the subsequent killings. The number 5 comes from what Batman said, if I'm remembering correctly. Batman says he will take the blame for the "5 deaths", which I think includes the four people Dent killed, plus Dent's death at the end.
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HeathIsTheOnlyJoker		#6	[url]	[-]
BOF'er Posts: 1201 07/23/08 11:11 AM	Deasnuts is right, the 2nd cop is the cop in the hospital the Joker actually shot, because they all assumed he had to in order to escape. "Batman has no limits" Heath Ledger lives on forever
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123itfollows		#7	[url]	[-]
BOF'er Posts: 232 07/23/08 11:15 AM	Dent didnt kill Ramerez, he said "You get to live another day i guess_ or something like that. what about the bartender though, we never know what happened to him. maybe hes one of them. upset the establishment.
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John Bierly		#8	[url]	[-]
BOF'er Posts: 25 07/23/08 11:50 AM	I'm with Mark -- the fifth is Harvey himself. Harvey's death ties in with what the people on the civilian boat were saying about how the criminals on the other boat had made their choices to murder and steal, and is further brought home when Harvey is trying to play the victim and Batman reminds him that he's the one holding the gun on Gordon's son. Harvey chose to threaten the boy's life, and he by-God would have followed through with it. Batman chose to rescue the boy. Sorry, Harvey. Last Edited By: John Bierly 07/23/08 11:56 AM. Edited 1 time.
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John Bierly		#9	[url]	[-]
BOF'er Posts: 25 07/23/08 11:53 AM	Also, per Ramirez, there were two cops outside of Gordon's house. But I think Barbara got herself and her kids out of the house on her own per what Ramirez told her about the cops being dirty, and that she and the kids were either intercepted by Harvey after leaving the house.
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Evil Twin 120		#10	[url]	[-]
BOF'er Posts: 2484 07/23/08 12:11 PM DCU Guru	markwestlyhughes wrote: Dent killed: 1. Maroni's driver 2. Maroni 3. The cop in the bar 4. One other cop Gordon says that two of the people Dent killed were cops, so that's where #4 above comes from, but I don't think that second cop's death was shown (or it wasn't obvious enough for me to notice). Perhaps there was a cop outside Gordon's home, for protection against the Joker, and Dent killed that cop when he kidnapped Gordon's family, but I don't personally recall any line in the film that said this. Or I think the other one is meant to be the cop in Dent's room, since the gun that killed that cop in the hospital is the same one that killed Maroni's driver and the cop in the bar. I think this is most likely, since Gordon and Batman think Dent was killing all those other folks and they likely think the cop at the hospital untied Dent from the bed to help evacuate him and was then shot by Dent. The Joker's presence at the hospital is kind of a separate issue, since yes he blew up the hospital and took hostages afteward, but Dent still definitely escaped during the evacuation and definitely was using the same gun in the subsequent killings. Yeah, but there's no way they were done digging out the bodies in the hospital and performed an autopsy including ballistics tests in just a few hours. Those cops are missing but that's a big leap for the characters to attribute it to Harvey. Especially with The Joker present on the scene. Ultimately it doesn't really matter to the meaning of the scene. I do suspect that Ramirez may have died in an alternate take and what we have here is a minor continuity error. No big deal. "Slowly, his great frame straightens. Small veins stand out on his features. Muscles cord in his throat. His eyes become fires, his mouth a knife-edged line. For the first time, the Batman knows rage. Bleak, grim rage. Woe to all criminals, for now, the Batman has become a terrible figure of vengeance!" Batman #5, The Case of the Honest Crook
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UnknownCriminal		#11	[url]	[-]
BOF'er Posts: 376 07/23/08 12:33 PM	I still trying to figure out how the hell did Gordon know Dent had killed exactly 5 people. None of the bodies was found yet and Gordon actually thought Dent was one of the hostages in the building the Joker was in. Until he got the phone call from Barbara he didn't even know Dent was out killing the people who wronged him. I don't remember Dent telling Gordon how many people he had already killed. Did he?
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markwestlyhughes	Yeah, but there's no way they were done digging out the bodies in the hospital and performed an autopsy including ballistics tests in just a few hours	#12	[url]	[-]
BOF'er Posts: 2746 07/23/08 12:35 PM	Yeah, but there's no way they were done digging out the bodies in the hospital and performed an autopsy including ballistics tests in just a few hours. Those cops are missing but that's a big leap for the characters to attribute it to Harvey. Especially with The Joker present on the scene. Well, actually at the scene after the explosion, the cops have confirmed that everyone was evacuated, but that Dent is missing somewhere. They know they sent a cop to evacuate him from his room. I think that since they are already searching so hard for him at that moment, and that they know Dent's not in the rubble, we could reasonably conclude that they did an initial search in the area where his room would be expected to be found and they know he wasn't there. But that could easily mean they found the cop's body, and from that time until later that night, I think it's entirely reasonable to think the cop's body would've been immediately sent for a preliminary quick look. They would've been able to at least, in those many hours, determine he'd been shot by a .38. So they'd know he was killed in Dent's room by the same type of gun used by Dent to kill a couple of other people. We have to assume that indeed they DO know Dent killed those other people, that much is obvious in the film, and those were all AFTER the hospital sequence. So they had time to somehow quickly determine it was Dent in those cases. To me, it's not at all hard to imagine they found the cop and took the bullet from him, and thus could very quickly tell what kind of gun was used. It's not much of a leap for them to initially assume that this is enough evidence to indicate Dent was responsible, in light of the info they had about the other killings. As for the Joker, well that just doesn't seem to necessarily matter. If you have two people linked to a crime scene, but one of those suspects was 100% for sure in the same room with a murder victim, and then that same type of gun was later used on other victims killed by the same suspect, it is entirely reasonable to link the first killing to him as well. Consider also that the Joker tried to kill Dent, and then was blowing up the hospital where Dent was located. It likely didn't immediately occur to them that the Joker would end up FREEING Dent. Sure, the Joker talked in the end about having turned Dent evil, but his original intent seemed to have been to kill Dent, so the cops and Batman could very reasonably conclude that Dent's "evil" turn was not the expected outcome the Joker had in mind earlier. The evidence in fact just overwhelmingly would seem to implicate Dent in that killing, and the Joker's guilt in fact seems at odds with what they knew about him and his actions at that time.
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Evil Twin 120		#13	[url]	[-]
BOF'er Posts: 2484 07/23/08 12:47 PM DCU Guru	markwestlyhughes wrote: As for the Joker, well that just doesn't seem to necessarily matter. If you have two people linked to a crime scene, but one of those suspects was 100% for sure in the same room with a murder victim, and then that same type of gun was later used on other victims killed by the same suspect, it is entirely reasonable to link the first killing to him as well. Consider also that the Joker tried to kill Dent, and then was blowing up the hospital where Dent was located. It likely didn't immediately occur to them that the Joker would end up FREEING Dent. Sure, the Joker talked in the end about having turned Dent evil, but his original intent seemed to have been to kill Dent, so the cops and Batman could very reasonably conclude that Dent's "evil" turn was not the expected outcome the Joker had in mind earlier. The evidence in fact just overwhelmingly would seem to implicate Dent in that killing, and the Joker's guilt in fact seems at odds with what they knew about him and his actions at that time. I don't know how logical it is to suppose that Harvey Dent, who only targetted people who he blamed for Rachel's death, was responsible for the murder of TWO cops guarding him, who were unconnected to the crime, when there was also a mass murderer present on scene. It's just as easy to assume, and probably likelier, that Harvey escaped from The Joker after a struggle where he managed to wrangle that gun from The Joker. I have a hard time coming up with two cops either way. Old cop in bar is a given. Two cops in hospital makes 3. Perhaps, the guy Dent replaced in the car was a cop that Gordon sent to guard Maroni after Maroni gave them some info on the Joker's whereabouts? "Slowly, his great frame straightens. Small veins stand out on his features. Muscles cord in his throat. His eyes become fires, his mouth a knife-edged line. For the first time, the Batman knows rage. Bleak, grim rage. Woe to all criminals, for now, the Batman has become a terrible figure of vengeance!" Batman #5, The Case of the Honest Crook
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markwestlyhughes		#14	[url]	[-]
BOF'er Posts: 2746 07/23/08 1:48 PM	I don't know how logical it is to suppose that Harvey Dent, who only targetted people who he blamed for Rachel's death, was responsible for the murder of TWO cops guarding him, who were unconnected to the crime, when there was also a mass murderer present on scene. It's just as easy to assume, and probably likelier, that Harvey escaped from The Joker after a struggle where he managed to wrangle that gun from The Joker. I have a hard time coming up with two cops either way. Old cop in bar is a given. Two cops in hospital makes 3. Perhaps, the guy Dent replaced in the car was a cop that Gordon sent to guard Maroni after Maroni gave them some info on the Joker's whereabouts? But I only recall one cop in Dent's hospital room, not two. Were there two, for sure? If so, then that definitely disqualifies that one, it would seem. But I just remember one cop going into the room to get Dent. IF there was only one cop in Dent's room, not two, then I still think that would be the second cop Gordon is talking about. Because nobody knows the Joker was in Dent's room except Dent and the Joker (and the dead cop). The Joker being at the scene was while he was trying to kill Dent again, as far as the cops know. Dent was untied from his bed, then the cop was shot by the same gun/same type of gun (depending on how much the cops knew, and they knew already that Dent was behind the later killings pretty soon thereafter) that killed most of Dent's other victims. Now, obviously, if there were two cops in the room, then I'm perplexed because I'd still think Gordon should suspect Dent of the killings and thus the suspected Dent-body-count would be higher, and the number of cops they think he killed would be three, not two. I'm seeing it again this week, and I'll be paying very close attention to this scene (and the end, when Dent dies, for that discussion, haha!). Is anyone (including you, ET, not meaning to suggest I wouldn't take your certainty at face value! ) totally certain there were definitely TWO cops in the hospital room?
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Evil Twin 120		#15	[url]	[-]
BOF'er Posts: 2484 07/23/08 2:09 PM DCU Guru	markwestlyhughes wrote: I don't know how logical it is to suppose that Harvey Dent, who only targetted people who he blamed for Rachel's death, was responsible for the murder of TWO cops guarding him, who were unconnected to the crime, when there was also a mass murderer present on scene. It's just as easy to assume, and probably likelier, that Harvey escaped from The Joker after a struggle where he managed to wrangle that gun from The Joker. I have a hard time coming up with two cops either way. Old cop in bar is a given. Two cops in hospital makes 3. Perhaps, the guy Dent replaced in the car was a cop that Gordon sent to guard Maroni after Maroni gave them some info on the Joker's whereabouts? But I only recall one cop in Dent's hospital room, not two. Were there two, for sure? If so, then that definitely disqualifies that one, it would seem. But I just remember one cop going into the room to get Dent. IF there was only one cop in Dent's room, not two, then I still think that would be the second cop Gordon is talking about. Because nobody knows the Joker was in Dent's room except Dent and the Joker (and the dead cop). The Joker being at the scene was while he was trying to kill Dent again, as far as the cops know. Dent was untied from his bed, then the cop was shot by the same gun/same type of gun (depending on how much the cops knew, and they knew already that Dent was behind the later killings pretty soon thereafter) that killed most of Dent's other victims. Now, obviously, if there were two cops in the room, then I'm perplexed because I'd still think Gordon should suspect Dent of the killings and thus the suspected Dent-body-count would be higher, and the number of cops they think he killed would be three, not two. I'm seeing it again this week, and I'll be paying very close attention to this scene (and the end, when Dent dies, for that discussion, haha!). Is anyone (including you, ET, not meaning to suggest I wouldn't take your certainty at face value! ) totally certain there were definitely TWO cops in the hospital room? The one cop calls the other cop on the radio and then goes to investigate. I don't think we see the body, but there's definitely a cop and his partner going on. My simplest explanation: "Gordon can't count". Ergo, by Occam's Razor, it's the "right" answer. "Slowly, his great frame straightens. Small veins stand out on his features. Muscles cord in his throat. His eyes become fires, his mouth a knife-edged line. For the first time, the Batman knows rage. Bleak, grim rage. Woe to all criminals, for now, the Batman has become a terrible figure of vengeance!" Batman #5, The Case of the Honest Crook
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markwestlyhughes		#16	[url]	[-]
BOF'er Posts: 2746 07/23/08 4:20 PM	The one cop calls the other cop on the radio and then goes to investigate. I don't think we see the body, but there's definitely a cop and his partner going on. Ah, but his partner could've been outside or just elsewhere in the hospital, and never showed up since an evacuation was going on -- that other cop probably was assisting in the rest of the evacuation etc. Since they didn't show him, I definitely don't think we are meant to conclude that he died at all. AND, the Joker gave Dent his gun, and we see him leave and then the explosions start etc, and they otherwise made a point of showing Dent knocking off all the other folks as well. So I don't think Joker or Dent killed that partner cop. I'm sticking by my agreement with the interpretation that Dent is getting blamed for killing the cop in his room, which Deezer was the first I saw to suggest by the way so kudos to him for figuring out a mystery that was plaguing us all. My simplest explanation: "Gordon can't count". Ergo, by Occam's Razor, it's the "right" answer. Silence! You know we don't accept simple answers around here!
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markwestlyhughes		#17	[url]	[-]
BOF'er Posts: 2746 07/23/08 8:49 PM	Okay, I've confirmed a few things: 1. There was definitely only one cop in Dent's hospital room -- his partner is the guy outside helping load the buses, and is the guy who is still alive later who informs Gordon that they evacuated everyone but can't locate Dent. 2. It is indeed GORDON, not Batman as I've been erroneously saying, who at the end of the film says, "Five dead? Two of them cops?" after Batman says the public cannot find out what happened. But it still does seem to be a number that includes the total Dent-related body count INCLUDING Dent. 3. There is no other scene of Dent killing a second cop, nor is there any mention by him that he killed another cop. The only explanations are (a) Gordon can't count, or (b) they think the dead cop from Dent's hospital room was killed by Dent.
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Evil Twin 120		#18	[url]	[-]
BOF'er Posts: 2484 07/24/08 11:21 AM DCU Guru	I do think that this is a case where it would be better for the character to be somewhat omniscient and 100% correct than to be incorrect. It's really a trivial point in the whole scheme of things and there are more substantial things to talk about. "Slowly, his great frame straightens. Small veins stand out on his features. Muscles cord in his throat. His eyes become fires, his mouth a knife-edged line. For the first time, the Batman knows rage. Bleak, grim rage. Woe to all criminals, for now, the Batman has become a terrible figure of vengeance!" Batman #5, The Case of the Honest Crook
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ManWhoLaughs83		#19	[url]	[-]
BOF'er Posts: 6838 07/24/08 11:22 AM BOF Admin/Batman Fan	I saw it again last night and found one other person who could be one of the 5 that Dent killed. When Maroni was getting into his car, he had two men with him, the driver and another bodyguard. Just as the bodyguard is getting into the rear seat on the driver side (the seat Two-Face ended up being in), you see him get jerked back quickly. We can't say for sure what Two-Face did to that man, but it is possible that he's one of the 5 people Gordon was referring to. Thank you, 6 Joker 9 In memory of Heath Ledger, 1979-2008
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markwestlyhughes		#20	[url]	[-]
BOF'er Posts: 2746 07/24/08 12:46 PM	^But wouldn't that mean that the bodyguard had to be a cop, since Gordon definitely says there were TWO cops among the body-count? But that's an excellent point MWL, there was another guy there as well who disappeared so something had to happen to him too -- unless he wasn't jerked back and was just quickly moving away from the car, and Dent was already inside the car waiting for Maroni. I do think that this is a case where it would be better for the character to be somewhat omniscient and 100% correct than to be incorrect. It's really a trivial point in the whole scheme of things and there are more substantial things to talk about. I definitely agree that it's a situation where Batman and Gordon "need" to be correct about the body-count. And it is really a small thing, except to the extent that some of us were wondering if we missed a sequence in the film showing Dent kill someone, and more importantly to help figure out if the "5 dead" number includes Dent (as part of the discussion about whether or not Dent is meant to be dead for sure in this film). Also, I guess it also has some relevance if the second dead cop wasn't actually personally involved in the death of Rachel or the scarring of Dent, since it would mean Dent is thought to have killed a cop who WASN'T connected to those tragic events. Everyone else was somehow "to blame" in Dent's mind, so the death of an unrelated cop would be an anomaly, as well as meaning also that Batman is taking the blame for having killed a potentially "good" cop, which is an important issue in fact.
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